[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Actorzilla podcast. I'm your host, James Larson, and today we have on a very special guest, the amazing headshot photographer, vani Poirier.
Is that right? I said your name, right, right.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: You did. I was so worried.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: I know. I was worried too. And I was like, we're going to have to do another take. But I remember money because. Yeah, right.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Your name's awesome.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: How's it going?
[00:00:34] Speaker B: It's going good. And it sounds like it's going well for you as well.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
Vani is an amazing photographer based in LA, and I had the pleasure of shooting with her. It was two years ago now, which is crazy.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: March 2022. And wow. I've had nothing but good responses from my shots since then. And I recommend everyone to go check her out. She's your most active. I mean, you have your amazing
[email protected].
The blog is amazing. I think that's how I found you, actually. I think I was just like googling stuff about headshots in LA because I had moved out there recently and I found your stuff and I was like, wow, she knows what she's talking about. She's really smart. And of course, the shots were amazing.
Portfolio.
And then you're also on Instagram, right? I don't know. What other social places are you on? Are you mostly on Instagram?
[00:01:40] Speaker B: No, just Instagram, really. It's hard to keep up with everything, but Instagram is mostly right now for my photographer following, and I plan on sort of nurturing pinterest for actors, but I'm not there yet, so you can find me on Instagram. Poyer photos, same as my website. P-O-Y-E-Y. Photos, like plural.
However, the content is mostly for photographers. But you'll see my work there.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm interested in that because obviously you have kind of a dual audience with photographers and actors.
What kind of spurred that focus? I guess those two different focuses.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, the actor strike kind of pushed me to do something I've been wanting to do for a long time, and I always told myself I'm too busy and I don't have time to do it, which was, I'm creating a digital course for photographers to learn headshot photography, like the a to z's of photography. Everything from skills to mindset to business and marketing. And so I started building my course by taking a course building course and then realized that in order for my course to sell, I would need to grow my photography audience. And since I already have a bunch of photographers just organically following me as a headshot photographer, I didn't want to switch my account just because they were already there.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: That's cool.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Here we are. That strike was, I think, interesting, but it caused a lot of people to get off their ass.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: I'm sorry.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: As you know, during the photo shoot, I curse.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: It's all good. It only adds to the shots.
So I think you answer a lot of the questions that I have, I think, for you, like on your blog. But I think people want to. I mean, I'm still interested in it, obviously, this podcast is geared towards actors, and my passion through actorzilla is basically to help my audience. I say is like myself when I first moved to New York.
Early career actors basically is kind of what I'm kind of targeting. Obviously, there's a lot of different segments of that. Like, actors of all ages and need headshots. So I'm kind of curious, do you have any advice for that segment, particularly, like, people that haven't ever gotten headshots before and their first headshot session and what the process is like?
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I have so much to say for the beginner actor.
The actors that are just starting out kind of have this misconception about what headshots are. They kind of see it more as an opportunity to look really pretty or really hot on camera. And I'm not just talking about women, and they just have no clue that you really need to look at headshots as a marketing tool, and it's your business card of sorts. And so they make the mistake of just, first of all, looking pretty, and that's it.
With no regard to marketing themselves, because they don't know how. And then second, they make the mistake of thinking, well, I'm just starting out, so I don't need expensive headshots, or I don't need, I should say, pro headshots, which are normally expensive.
And that kind of thinking, it literally is backwards. So because you're just starting out, you actually need pro headshots and not headshots by a friend, because that's what's going to get agents and casting directors to take you seriously.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: I was laughing because I was thinking back to my first headshot session, and it was by a friend, of course. I mean, this was in college, but I also took it to New York and my head was cut off, like mid forehead. So it wasn't even a full headshot. It was like a, I don't even know what you would call that.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Right.
We call that art.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: That's art. Yeah, it's true.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: I did that too.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I would tell myself too, is like, invest more in it. One, because you're just getting your face out there. Like they don't know you and they haven't gotten to know you yet. And this could be the first impression that you have. And is this the first impression you want to leave on an agent, on a manager, on a casting director?
And I would love to hear more about your approach. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts about branding are. I know there's tons of info out there, but you kind of mentioned that a little bit in what you just said about your marketing tool. So what is your approach to that and what's your philosophy on that?
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Well, okay, yes, you have to be mindful of your overarching brand, but also under that umbrella brand, you need to have very specific, targeted marketing looks in your headshots, which means you need to spell out in your headshots specifically what characters you would play and what roles you would audition for. And how do you figure that out? Well, you figure that out by sort of defining your brand. I know that sounds really confusing and it's like a fancy word, but it doesn't have to be. It's literally just putting into words something that's very natural to us. Which is, okay, if I look at a list of looks, which I'm sure James will give you guys the link to my list of popular looks that agents and managers are asking for. Right. If I look at that list of looks, there are certain looks that are going to resonate with me because of who I am. And there are certain looks that are going to be supported by how I physically look. So it's a matter of what you can physically play. And I guess what's the word I'm looking for? Like what you can physically pass off as believable and what you can pass off as believable with your essence. And the combination of those two is essentially your brand. And then the looks you can pass off, as with your physical look and your essence are going to be your marketing looks. Does that make sense? Or hopefully I didn't make it more confusing.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: No, that totally makes sense.
My brain kind of went to, what are your commercial types like if someone saw you in a commercial? Because in a commercial you have 1015, 30 seconds to really to instantly get who a person is.
And you have obviously a list of archetypes that are sought after. But are you, like, the geeky nerd? Are you the helpful employee? I know you always include those kind of labels and they're very helpful as far as clarifying a type. And we all have a variety. It's not like you just have one that you can do. It's like everyone has a variety, but what is the variety that you're going for in this shoot today? That's right. For your type right now.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Exactly.
I view it as categories and subcategories. Like the two looks that you listed are categories of. I'm sorry, subcategories of the business category because the helpful employee is an employee at their job. Right. So that falls under business. And the nerdy type I pictured as, like, the office guy or even the student, the grad student. Again, that falls under the business category because that person is doing something that is business like. Right. So you can be a number of things under one category.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
So say someone's gotten their types, they've decided on their looks. How do you decide on how many looks you should get? That's what I wonder, because I know there's different packages and stuff. Is it just the most that you can afford? Because then you'll have the most variety, or what do you tell people necessarily?
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Well, I've made it okay. So for kids under 13, I don't recommend more than three looks. Usually anywhere from one to three looks, just because they change a lot. And depending on how young they are, if it's an infant, then I would definitely do one look.
But the older you get, like teenagers all the way up to 56, would say you have a lot more range. So then in that case, at least four looks should be your minimum. But it's a combination of what did your reps ask for? And with me, if you don't have reps, then I send you to my list. And what did you come up with? A combination of that, along with what can you afford. And then based on that, I still have you prepare for what you put together, even if it's less than or if it's more than what you can afford. And then based on that, we have a little clothing and look consultation the day of the session where I help finalize which ones you're going to get the most mileage out of, just from my experience. So I still want you to bring everything you think you can do.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Right. And I went on your instagram, I can't remember when it was posted, but it was basically like when you tell a client to bring three options per look and they only bring in one.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Is that like a common. That's a common thing.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah, it is. So many people just don't do their homework.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: I'm not sure that every headshot photographer does that. As far as being as creative as you, as far as you also help style and you're like, you want it to be the best look it can be. And the more options you have, the more creative you can be.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Totally, yeah. It's just not as limiting.
And sometimes people are off. They bring one outfit per look and it's like the same t shirt in different colors for every look. And I'm like, how am I supposed to make that the office guy and this one the best friend? What's the difference here?
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Photoshop, right? Isn't it Photoshop, yeah.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: The biggest disservice you can do for yourself is spend money on a pro but not take the time to prepare.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Right.
And what do you think, in general, makes a great headshot for an actor?
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Good question. Yeah, that is the age old question.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: We'll answer it here, I'm sure.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Okay, so the generic answer is your eyes. Your eyes have to say something.
And that is just so, like, what the hell does that mean? What do you do with that? My eyes have to say something. Okay, so I'll smise. No, I think more specifically, what makes a great headshot? There are two things, actually, that make a great headshot that I should say are effective as a headshot. Number one, casting directors want to know instantly when your rep submits 7000 photos for a costar role. They need to be able to look at your photo and instantly identify the character. So number one, your headshots need to be specific in terms of type. Right. Number two, they want to be able to see that you can act and you're not just posing like a model, looking pretty. And so you have to show your personality. Well, how do you do that?
The first part is preparation. And hopefully your photographer is giving you guidance on how to prepare. And then the second part is, I think it's on the photographer to direct you as much as possible and to bring out your personality. And so that's my job. And I think that's what we should do. We should direct actors.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: What if you find yourself in a session and you didn't really know exactly how a photographer would interact with you? Some photographers that I've been to, they don't really direct, or at least as well as you did. I mean, you're very active and helpful in your directions, and that obviously shows in your work. I think that you basically want to capture a moment, right? An acting moment that has personality. But some photographers don't know how to do that or they don't do it. Is there any way to salvage that as an actor? You know that you need to be capturing this moment and not like a JCPenney pose.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: So is there any way to salvage that as an actor?
[00:15:27] Speaker B: No. You're really going to come shoot with me.
I've heard all kinds of advice about that. Have a scene going on in your head. But honestly, that doesn't work because you're not in sync with the photographer. You can't just be in your own world. You guys have to be in the zone together. Because when you give them something, they need to see that and click. Or when they click, you need to know that they're about to click. I don't know if that works, but I think that over time, actors, just by experience, get better and better at giving the specific looks that a character would give just from learning more about themselves as actors and auditioning more and doing more commercials, which is very facially expressive.
But in the end, if that is what you're looking for, then you really need to do your research and make sure the photographer can deliver what you need. Because not everybody wants to do headshots with personality. Some people need and want to do pretty pictures, and I think there's a time and place for that, too.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: What is the time and place for those kind of shots?
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Well, for example, if you are pretty and you are at a point in your career where you're being sent out for principal roles or for principal roles for even not just established shows, but for pilots, then you need to market yourself as a leading woman or a leading man. And in that case, because you have enough costar and guest star credits, you can do pretty for all the different types of shots that you're doing.
But if you are not going to be a leading man or woman, then in that case, I would say you should continue to focus more on personality based headshots, even when your resume is up to that point. Does that make sense?
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Right. That does make sense, yeah, we kind of touched on it earlier a little bit. Just about one mistake that actors make, basically not being prepared enough. But are there any other mistakes that actors make when preparing for headshots or even looking for a photographer?
[00:17:52] Speaker B: When preparing or looking for a photographer? Well, yeah, I mean, I've seen actors not really do their due diligence when looking photography for a photographer. They're just looking for the guy who's available the soonest. And that's a big mistake because, number one, you didn't take the time to do your research and you're going to waste money. And number two, this isn't something you rush.
You want to give yourself at least two weeks, because not only do you have to pick out your looks, but then you have to pick out two to three options per look in terms of wardrobe. And then if you don't have the wardrobe, you should give yourself time to go shopping and even leave the tags on and don't return the clothing if you want. But it takes time, and you can't be going for the guy who's available the soonest. So that's the first mistake I've seen. And then in terms of preparation, the biggest mistake I see is that people just don't read the materials we send them for them to prepare. They just don't read. And so they'll show up and they'll say, yeah, I didn't know what to bring, so I brought everything.
You didn't know what to bring.
Why don't you know what to bring? Because I told you what to bring.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: Right.
I'm kind of curious about your journey in the whole industry.
How did you start out and what drew you to doing headshots?
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Well, I was a, let's see, college dropout trying to figure out what to do with my life. I went to art school. I've been a visual artist all my life. And when I went to art school, it really screwed me up because it kind of was, like, way too structured. It didn't make any sense to me. So I dropped out of art school, went to community college, and to be honest, school is just, I had to try way too hard to get a's in school, so I dropped out of that. My friend said, you're an actress, you should take an acting class. So I took an acting class, and that's when I started shooting my fellow actors, just for fun.
Like I said, I was a visual artist.
I was an amateur photographer. My dad was, I would say, a professional hobbyist. So I already knew because this was like back in the film days. You can just pick up a camera and know what to do like you do with digital. So I started taking people's photos, and then as I got more and more nervous about being a waitress forever, I realized I can make a living with headshots. And however, for me, it was really difficult to maintain both headshots and acting.
I felt like I needed to go all in. And I'm an impatient person and I was broke and I just didn't have what I see actors should have, which is like, the willingness to be broke for ten years and the drive and ambition to really want it that bad. And I was directionless, so I clearly didn't want it that bad. I think what I wanted more was freedom and making money on my terms. And so that's how I segued into photography. And then when I got fired from my last waitressing job, I just took a chance and put all my eggs in one basket and it took off, luckily.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Wow. Were you always in LA?
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Yes, I grew up here. Yeah. Nine years old. On, yeah.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay, cool.
Wow, that's awesome.
So what drew you to the arts? I mean, your dad was a photographer too.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I had been drawing since I was little, since literally I could pick up the pencil and I would draw fashion figures and everyone thought I would become a fashion designer. But like I said, when I went to art school, it just wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And the fashion world turned out wasn't me at all, even though I loved drawing fashion.
It's just the pretentiousness and I just can't. It wasn't me. So, yeah, I became very disillusioned going to art school and dropped out and then had to figure it out. There was something about photography. I just did it as a hobby when I was a teenager, and I would just document my crazy party life.
But something about it gives instant gratification if you've ever taken a photo. And now it's even more instant, obviously, with digital, but it's just instant because you see yourself capturing something and creating art.
So it just made sense.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: I'm kind of curious how, because obviously you've seen it change from film to digital.
Obviously, headshots went from, what, black and white mostly early on.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: What has been the evolution that you've witnessed in your work?
[00:23:07] Speaker B: So it was all black and white, and that's because it was not very cheap to produce color. Even processing color film was more expensive than black and white. Oh, wow. Black and white is very forgiving and people look really good in black and white, in case you haven't noticed, when you put on a black and white filter on Instagram.
And then what happened was then came digital. And it was right around when digital cameras were starting to get big that technology shifted. And then the production labs were able to produce color headshots for the same price as black and white, because before they used to be super expensive.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: So that's when it turned into color.
And I can't believe people thought it was a fake. Some people thought it was a phase. I'm like, no, it's not. It's like color film, like movies.
Before web submissions came about, we used to be able to take three quarter shots and call them headshots. And for me, that was really much more fun and expressive and creative, really, to be honest. And also, it allowed the actor to convey so much more with body language.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: So I felt like it was harder to zoom in and do headshots. But once everything went digital and you had to submit online, all the agents were like, stop doing that. Get in. We got to see their heads. We got to see their face.
So it's turned into super tight. Whereas before, you could break those rules and nobody would say anything if it was a great headshot.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: I'm curious about, because your framing, I like your framing a lot because it tells a story with what you're wearing, with the personality.
Do you see that not as a disadvantage, but in a world of thumbnails, right, where you see.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: What you're getting at?
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you see what I'm getting.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: I think what James is talking about is my framing is slightly wider than a headshot. Slightly.
It's above the waist, but it's below the chest. So it's like between the chest and the belly button.
But I do that for a reason, because what I've noticed is that when you upload your photos to the casting sites, the aspect ratio of the main photos, if you're on actors, access those little thumbnails. That is not the same aspect ratio as what comes out of a camera. So it crops your photos for you. So what ends up happening is all that space goes away. So if you pre crop it in the camera, then it becomes so tight that then you don't have any negative space and you don't have any context. So why are you even changing clothes at that point?
[00:26:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: So without context, you're not going to be able to differentiate the characters from one another. So I actually tell my clients, don't. I'm so sorry. I have a cough.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: So sorry.
I tell my clients, don't pre crop before you upload them, because uploading them will crop them anyway.
But by not pre cropping them, and because I'm a little wide, you're still going to be able to see the character and the outfit and have some context as to who the character is. And we're not just relying on your expression. Ideally, you want to rely on the expression and the outfit together to tell a story and let us know which type it is.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've even seen when I go in person, they print it out and there's more context. I don't know what that is in the process, but I've seen where people crop in too much. It's just like their head, and it's kind of a disembodied head, but with your shots, it's more. You get a more context, which I think is great.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah. There's really no point in doing types if you're going to crop it that tight.
And also by not cropping it, then if they click on that little one, the little thumbnail, they'll see the whole thing, which gives them even more context, which I think is more effective.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Right.
It's kind of interesting because what do you think agents and casting look for in a headshot these days?
[00:28:06] Speaker B: I think aside from it being a headshot and not a three quarter shot, I really think that they need to see more casting directors than anything because it's casting directors that are dictating what agents ask for. So casting directors are just overwhelmed with the amount of submissions for each role. And so they just really need to have the character type in your headshot match what's in the breakdown period. And that's why you need specific characters. They need to be able to see, oh, this is the creative professional that we can cast in a show like upload on Amazon. You know what I mean? Oh, she works in an office, but she works in a creative space. It needs to be instant. It can't be a general. Yeah. When you told me, when you asked me about the transformation, that was one of the main transformations. It's like before we used to just be able to take general headshots of you, but now it can't just be a general photo of you that looks like you. It's got to say something about who the character is. And that's why a lot of clients will come back and add to their staple shots, because you can ask for submission reports from your reps. Right. And you can see what they're submitting and what's not working and what you're not getting called in for. And I've had clients who look at that and go, oh, I'm consistently not getting called in for the doctor. Okay, so why don't we do one in a lab code. I know it sounds super cheesy. And this was like back in the 80s, like, they did this, but now it's back because that's how competitive it is. And so then you just add that to your staple. Four shots that you've done, the doctor in a lab coat, and then you get called in.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: Right. Because it basically goes back to what you said about casting directors needing, like, an immediate. They want to see you as the role as close as possible. Right?
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
Don't listen to those negative comments about they have no imagination.
I hear that a lot. That's not it. I think by not clarifying your look, you are adding what in marketing is called friction. Friction causes people to pass. Okay? So if you give them a reason to say no, they will. So don't give them a reason to say no. Give them a reason to say yes. And that is by being clear and specific with your looks. Because if they can't figure it out and you don't quite fit the role, it's a pass. It's a no.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: I see it as like the Amazon buy button, like the one click purchase.
They reduced the number of steps you.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Have to go through.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: The number of steps? Yeah. It's like you want a casting director to have just one click.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Boop.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: That's our guy. Or girl.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: I like that.
Feel that.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Another interesting thing with your shots that I've found of every session that I've had with any other photographer, I have such a variety in my back pocket as far as each look has, quote, like, dramatic and quote, comedic elements to it that I can draw from, if that makes sense. I'm dressed the same, but the energy, the way that you directed it, I think, and the way that it just happened in our session was like, I can use it for a dramatic Silicon Valley thing, or I can use it for a funny Silicon Valley thing.
I'm curious what your opinion on that is because they have legit versus commercial versus all that designation.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And the next question. I got to record you for Instagram, if you don't mind.
I do that on purpose because I don't believe in. Again, this is now like before, we used to have hard differences between commercial and theatrical during the black and white days. And it's really changed.
I think just because everything's changed on tv, the roles have changed, the opportunities have changed. Like, women work more color. If you're black or brown, you're going to work more.
So with headshots, there's no real black and white between theatrical and commercial or legit you guys call it on the east coast.
What I do is, okay, let's figure out what is your marketing looks? What are your marketing looks? And 95% of those marketing looks are going to cross over from commercial to theatrical. So in other words, if you play the dad in a 1 hour drama like this is us, why wouldn't you also play the dad in a Home Depot commercial? It makes sense.
So your brand, your target market is dad, right? Not target market, but your specific marketing look is.
So I just have my actors focus on what looks resonate with them and what looks their essence and what types their look and essence can support. And then if it's a crossover, which 95% of the time it is, then I direct you in such a way so I give you an emotional arc so that you have both the commercial and theatrical versions, and then you can use them however you wish. And you don't have to have two photo shoots. Both your agents can see them, and both of them will pick different essences to work for them for their purpose.
[00:33:46] Speaker A: As an actor, too. I love that because it basically doubles how many shots you're getting. Instead of being like, oh, this is my happy commercial shot. You're like, no.
You go from like, I don't know, person who's on trial for something to best buy employee in the same look. You know what I mean?
It's not about the look.
Yeah, exactly.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: There's times when it's not a crossover. Like, for instance, if you were to pick a look like a villain or an antihero, most of the time that's going to be drama only. And in that case, then the lighting is going to be very gritty and not appropriate for commercials. And that's okay because you will get cast as that. And it doesn't have to go to commercial. And it's the same for commercials, too. There's a bunch of commercial looks that don't go theatrical.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Right.
I'm about to ask my next question.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: I'm going to record it then.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: So I'm curious.
We've talked about your process, but I'm curious about how you help actors convey the right emotion or how you get that emotional arc in your sessions. Like, how do you direct people? What is your approach?
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Yes, and as my client, you know my Secret. I do.
I play improv games with actors.
I'll throw lines at you, have you be in character, and there's a back and forth. So it doesn't give you time and space to get in your head and think about how to smile. Or get nervous, even. And if you are nervous, then you instantly snap out of it because all of a sudden you're in your safe space, which is you're acting with me and you're in the zone with me. And so whatever happens, it's very organic and it's under my control. So because I'm directing you, I'm also pressing the shutter whenever I see the expression I need. And then with digital, it's so awesome because then I delete all the ones that don't work, leaving me with the best. So my proof sheets often have, I get rid of repeats. And so my proof sheets, they don't look like the same face in different outfits. Like a million of them repeated. They literally will have different expressions from frame to frame, which gives you and your reps a ton of choices in terms of how to market the character, even like, oh, what kind of essence? Oh, we want theatrical one here that says, I'm sorry, I'm going on and on. But the other day I was picking photos for one of my clients, because a lot of times my clients will ask me to pick the best choices. And so what I did was I picked two from each group, from each look, and one of them was a suburban mom look. And so one look I picked was a suburban mom that was very judgmental and maybe lives in a shishi fufu neighborhood, maybe like on the PTA, but super judgy. And then the other one was like, I'm the boss of the house. You guys better listen to me, mom.
Just with the two different expressions. And I was like, hey, I think these are the best ones that I think that are good for you in terms of who you are when you walk in the room believably.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: I love that.
I'm curious, obviously, you get so many options digitally. And is there a process? Because I wonder how it is in LA, too, because I was trying to decide which ones to print, because obviously you're not going to be able to print every single there. Like, is there a philosophy you have on that of picking one more general shot that will work for a more variety of roles or just print out a lot?
[00:37:58] Speaker B: No, I would not print more than just one look.
If you have a rep, they will let you know which one they want you to print, if any.
But if you're just starting out and you're sending yourself out for maybe student films or, like, low budget stuff where you're not necessarily submitting online, you really just need one photo. Because in the world of online submissions, like prints are out, you don't even show up with a print anymore. There was a time when there was that crossover, like they were submitting online, but then you showed up with a print. You don't even do that anymore.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: It is in New York at least. I do a lot of theater work as well, so that is still a process here that you would show up with something sometimes.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: Okay, then don't listen to me on, no, no. Okay. Well, for theater, it's different. For theater, it's different, but even maybe for tv film, too.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: In New York, you're saying, no, that's more like they usually have a printed list, so you don't usually have to do it for tv film, but for theater mostly. Yeah. And if you do other sorts of performing.
But how do you pick one? Is it mostly just like, what do you. I don't know. Because does that go towards a more, like, pick one that generally gets your vibe?
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Okay, I see what you mean. I would say it depends on which looks you've done, but I remember you did one of your looks was the guy next door, the friend. And, yeah, I guess for you, that's the one I would pick because that's most closest to who you are in person, besides who you can become. So I guess that's what I would do is the one that most represents you, the real you, and not the actor you.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense because they're also there to remember in person when you go in person, they're there to meet you and get your energy as well as the characters.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: I'm curious, with social media, how do you think an actor can best utilize their headshots in their social media at marketing?
Like, should they be posting their headshots a lot or, you know what?
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Well, your question just gave me an idea because I feel like actors post their headshots and they're like, hey, look at my headshots. I got new headshots. Hire me. Look, isn't this the best cop shot you've ever seen? I can play a cop on such and such show, and then they'll tag the show or the casting director or something.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Tag the casting.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: But wouldn't it be cool if after your, I see actors posting their auditions, wouldn't it be cool if after your audition, just at the end, you post your headshot that you think goes with that character?
Yeah, just an idea.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: And then tagging the photographer.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: So they get tagging the photographer, tagging your agent, tagging whoever you need to. But I think it'll just help the people who have eyes on you to more clearly see what it is you're trying to do. I don't know. I just thought of a better way to use headshots on social media than to just post them and be like, look at these.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: No, I like that. It kind of reinforced, like you show your work and then you reinforce that.
[00:41:35] Speaker B: Yeah, reinforces a good, that kind of.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Brings up a question for me, which is what is the etiquette now as far as like, do you? Because to me, tagging a casting director, I don't know, that just seems, I mean, is that okay or. That seems a little far fetched to me. Not far fetched, but is that cool to do in this day and age?
[00:41:56] Speaker B: Yes and no. Yes and no.
Here's the key. On social media, with anything and anybody that you would like to connect with, tagging them randomly is not good form and it annoys people.
However, if you have been stalking that casting director and commenting on everything they post, genuinely commenting and genuinely commenting means like actually making smart comments about the content they post. And you've been doing this for like three months, believe me, they have taken notice and they know who you are and at that point they are a lot more inclined to take a look at your work if you tag them and they will not be annoyed. And I can tell you this just from the perspective of a photographer who I'll have followers and all of a sudden they pop into my feed and they are just asking me or they're just like following along, supporting and commenting and saying nice things and I've taken notice. And then all of a sudden one day they pop into my DM and they ask a question and they need help. Well, of course I'm going to help them at that point.
And same with my photographer followers. They ask for advice, I'm going to give them advice and I'm not going to treat them like spam. So I think that's a strategy.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah, basically just being a person and genuinely interacting with people. It's like, what would you do in real life? You wouldn't just go up and start trying to spam people or whatever.
Takes time to get to know someone.
[00:43:43] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that. That's awesome.
Is there any memorable photo shoot or session that sticks out to you or. I'm just curious. I'm putting you on the spot. I know, but I'm just wondering in.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: A good way or a bad way.
[00:44:05] Speaker A: Or a bad way, you don't have to name names, but memorable.
Any funny stories from that side.
[00:44:18] Speaker B: Yeah. The most memorable photo shoot, I would say. Yeah. It's always the bad ones that come to mind, right? Yeah. And the good ones, you always just have a really good feeling about that person forever and you love them, but the bad ones are the ones.
It just goes to show I teach my photographers people remember how you make them feel. So it's really important that you welcome people with an open heart and give them a stellar experience because that's what they'll remember over their headshots.
But, yes, I had a client who apparently was in the makeup chair crying for an hour, and I had a makeup artist I was trying out. So her and I did not know each other very well yet. And sure enough, she turns out she can't handle difficult situations. So she did not come back after that.
So apparently the client was crying in the makeup chair, and the artist was having to redo the makeup over and over again instead of knocking on my office door over here and saying, hey, I'm having trouble because the client's crying. So she finally came over after an hour, and I was wondering why it's taking so long and said, the client's crying. I go over there, long story short, the client's crying. I try to console her. I'm really awkward with people who cry around me, I should say strangers. And I'm really awkward about crying in front of strangers. I don't like showing that kind of vulnerability. So I'm awkward, and she's crying, and I'm doing my best to figure out what's wrong, and it turns into a two hour, I kid you not, two hour therapy session where me and the makeup artist are trying to help this girl, who I tried many times to say, maybe we shouldn't shoot. But she kept saying she wants to. And lesson learned. I should have just said, no, we cannot shoot. Took me 2 hours to get there. That was lame. Learning lesson.
I felt bad for her and gave her back her deposits.
Plural. Three deposits she had rescheduled three times. That's two, four, $600.
And I said, you come back when you're in a better place in life.
What did this girl do? She went and gave me a bad review because apparently I told her to get on antidepressants.
And I told her, hey, listen, I'm on antidepressants. I've been on them, like, forever. It's okay. But she took offense to that, apparently. So there you have it.
You can't win.
Yeah, with the crazies. I'm going to face you with a crazy.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: Wow. That sounds like a situation for sure.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: It was a situation. It was a situation. Yeah.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: You didn't have to call me out like that. It's so, you know, on my own podcast. But. No, just kidding.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: I did say she.
[00:47:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I was just trying to make a stupid joke, but that's cool.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: It's a story to remember.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: That's a story I'm kind of curious about.
Has an actor ever come to you and been like, oh, I just want to play this one type of character? Or do most actors, they want to play the biggest variety that they can?
[00:48:08] Speaker B: I think when actors come to me, just the nature of what I offer attracts actors who have a desire to play a range of characters. I think it's the opposite. I think most actors want to be everything, and that's a problem because you have to stick inside of your brand and what's believable. Not everyone is cut out to play the hero or the heroine, and everybody wants to play the hero and the heroine, even if they can't believably pass as one. Number one with their look and number two with their personality.
So I would say niche down and make sure that the types that you choose fit your essence and your essence and your look and don't try to be everything to everyone. That is a big mistake in every business, and you have to look at this as a business. That is a big mistake, actually, because then you're just throwing spaghetti on the wall and hoping it sticks. Whereas if you niche down, there's strategy and you're kind of a bigger fish in small water, if that makes sense.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the way you phrased it was much better than my original question, so I thank you.
Basically, I think when I was younger, I had an issue about being self aware of what maybe my type was, or maybe I knew what my type was. But like you said, I wanted to be the leading man.
I thought, oh, I can do it all. I think a lot of people, maybe they start in theater or they start in school and they get cast in these roles that you're going to play an 80 year old man when you're 17, it's like, well, that's great for high school, but now you're in the real industry and it's like you're probably not going to be cast as that.
And it's fine. You can still play a variety of roles, but you have to be more focused and have a smaller pool of roles that are.
And it's where your expectations and the industry expectations meet where? It's like, this is where I think I am, and this is where other people see me as, too.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: And I think it's important to find that mix and that balance, and it's only gotten better for me as time goes on. But I think a lot of early actors, I was confused by what my type should be, and I think people are maybe more aware of, or I would hope they'd be more aware of what they look like, what their energy says about them, what roles they can play.
I would hope that people nowadays would be more aware of that instead of fighting against it.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: Yes. Lean into your stereotype, so to speak.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: But yes, there's a lot more information out there now with social like, I know Melissa, the owner of rock your real she does like a type me course. Like a little mini mean. There's more. She was the first one that came to mind. But there's a lot of little mini courses you can take that will help you figure that out as a new actor because I know it can be super confusing when you don't know. You don't have any experience.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: Right.
I'm curious, outside the industry, are there any hobbies or interests that you're into right now?
[00:52:04] Speaker B: That question really makes me sad because.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: Why?
[00:52:09] Speaker B: Well, because as I work on my digital course, I don't have a life and I don't have a hobby.
[00:52:19] Speaker A: But education, right? Education is an interest for you?
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess. I guess that's my hobby right now. But it's all work work right now. But under normal times, I would say hiking.
I'm a foodie, if that counts as a hobby. I'm a snob when it comes to food. I'm sorry?
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Like foodie, as in like a cook? Like you cook things or you enjoy food?
[00:52:45] Speaker B: I like to enjoy good food when I go out to eat, if I go on vacation. So I'll plan. Okay, we're going to go and see this site and this site and this site, and then I will go and figure out what time lunch is going to be and what restaurant in that area is rated by Zagat or is rated, well, by Zagget or Michelin or whatever. And that's where we're going to eat. I will not go randomly into a restaurant without checking my best friend, Yelp.
[00:53:21] Speaker A: You're like the anti Anthony Bourdain.
[00:53:26] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:53:27] Speaker A: No, that sounds amazing.
I love that.
Is there any food that you like particularly, or just all kinds?
[00:53:38] Speaker B: Oh, okay. No, I can't really say. Yeah, I'm pretty eclectic.
I'm a wannabe vegan, which makes being a foodie much harder.
But when I ate everything, I was a foodie, and I've learned to still appreciate really good restaurants.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: Does that mean, like, as you're eating a steak, you're like, this is tofu. This is tofu.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: No, that's good. No, I don't eat meat. I don't eat chicken. I just recently cut out fish. I am trying hard to cut out cheese, and the only thing I don't do is I'm still not there when it comes to ingredients. Like, if there's a sauce that I'm using and the ingredient has milk in it, I don't have the lifestyle to be able to go that strict yet.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: I'm working towards it.
[00:54:31] Speaker A: You're working towards it? Okay.
[00:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah. It's hard when you live with two people who eat.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: Um, but there's some delicious. I mean, in New York, there's amazing. I went to this vegan sushi place, and it was like, one of the most amazing restaurants I've ever been to.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: Plus, you have that really. Oh, what's his name? He was. I always forget his name. His restaurant is like 11th something.
11th or 13 something. What is it? Anyway, he's like this famous chef. He was just featured in that documentary called you are what you eat on Netflix.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I think I saw that the entire restaurant went vegan. Yeah. Eleven Madison park or something. What is it called?
[00:55:17] Speaker B: Yes. Eleven Madison park.
Super famous, award winning, worldwide famous chef. And during the pandemic, he went all vegan.
It costs like $300 a person to eat there, and it's vegan. And people come out of there raving about it and everyone thought he was going to fail. So I think it's more like those kinds of restaurants where you go, if you're lucky, you can afford them once a year.
[00:55:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: I think if more fine dining restaurants went vegan, I think it would become a trend.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: That was a great documentary. I saw that.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Really good one.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: Ovani Poirier. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: Thank you for asking me to. I'm honored.
[00:56:07] Speaker A: And everyone.
Yeah, go check out. Do you have any special links or just your website and Instagram?
[00:56:15] Speaker B: You guys should download my wardrobe guide. Wherever you are, it'll help you go to my website, poyerphotos.com p as in paul oyeyphotos.com. And you are going to see a banner that'll take you to my wardrobe guide where you can download it. I think you'll find it's probably the best wardrobe guide out there in until my competition downloads it and copies it. But right now it's the best. Meaning it's very comprehensive. It's like four pages. It's super detailed. It's not just like, do this and do that.
[00:56:52] Speaker A: Well, I think you have no competition. I think you're in a league of your. So, yeah.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: Okay. Thank you, though.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: All right. Thank you so much, Bonnie.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: Thank you, James.
